How to stall turn without a rudder?

I've started this thread because it was threatening to take over another one.
The question is:
Does anyone know how to exicute a stall turn without a rudder?
I posted: Need to do a "B" with my DLG's but not sure how to do a stall turn without a rudder?

Rich responded by advising me to have a look in the Hand Book, which I had done. And then told me to get a model with a Rudder. ( )

I have written a letter to the BMFA this morning and asked for advise and pointing out that F3K is becomming more poular and in the near future there will be pilots who will have only flown DLG type models and there is no provision for this disipline in the training/exam syllabus.

By the way,
To fly my F3K models in Internation Open Competitions all I need is my BMFA membeship and my International flying license (a straight payment of £15). These Open Comp's have the general puplic as spectators ........ (No B Cert required)?

Back on track.
How do I do a stall turn without a rudder? is it possible or do I have to take a retro step (Forward to the past!) and fit a rudder as Rich suggests?
Thanks in advance.
Marty

Continuing from the other thread...

When slope soaring I do it all the time Marty

Should add its a V tail model

Would the V tail make a difference?
I have had a go while "Playing" around at the stall turn with my F3K's but all I get it a corkscrew stall

It is tricky, but not impossible. With my Mini-Fireworks (Rest In Peaces), I could get a sort of wingover/stall type turn, but it was rather tricky.

Basically, all you have to do, is get a bit of speed on, and pull up into a vertical climb. The key part is making sure the model is travelling as close to cross wind as possible (did I mention you need a bit of a breeze?). As the airspeed bleeds off in the vertical climb, you need to use the ailerons/elevator to get the model orientated so that the crosswind causes the model to drop into a sort of stall turn.

It is very tricky to get it right, as the model will naturally want to nose over, or fall back on itself, instead of falling off to the side. Secondly, if you do get it to fall off to the side, it will never look neat and tidy, it will look like a wingover/stall turn hybrid. And if you can get the exit tidy, you are a genius.

Unfortunately, I suspect it may be a case of using a rudder to do it properly though. I thought you fitted a rudder to your 1st Akcent anyway? Getting the BMFA bods to change the rules may well prove interesting.....

Andy

As the model drops the V tail tends to scew it round, pushing the nose down, so you don't get the same orientation coming down as you do going up

And, honest, its much easier to to than talk about

Thanks for the input.
Andy, the handbook states a stall turn into the wind ......
I converted to using Richard Swindles rudderless fins after flying the first comp this year at twywell. All the British team (and the majority of the World Class) F3k plots are flying rudderless, if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me!
I'm going to fly my Akcents for the rest of this year and hoping to do the Belgian and Danish Open's with them if I'm home but I'm having two Sabatage's built for next year!
The crazy thing is, I can fly in Internation comps (which have public spectators) on a liciense which I bought but can't fly at a show ....

Interestingly, the BMFA website stats this:

DISPLAYS AND COMPETITIONS

It should be noted that it is stated in the Safety Code for Model Flying Displays that a model flyer, using a radio-controlled powered model in a display before the public should produce evidence of holding a valid 'B' Certificate. Competitors in BMFA contests for radio controlled powered model aircraft must produce evidence of holding a valid `B' Certificate.

(taken from here: http://www.bmfa.org/achievement/index.html

I've highlighted two key words. So you "Must" produce your B cert for flying in a BMFA competition. but for a public display, you only "Should" do it. Personally, I would take that to mean that for a public display, a B cert would be nice, but is not a mandatory requirement?

I'm not sure if this is further clarified in the BMFA book, or display guidelines info, I'll have a looksee now I think....

Andy

The word "Should" is repeated in the section of the BMFA handbook pertaining to flying at public displays. They don't use the word "Must"......

Interesting...

Andy

Thanks Andy but surely a Hand Launched Glider is not powered?

So you fly your models with no power at all? How do you get the servos to move, Rubber bands?

I think the point I was trying to make before, was that I don't beleive the B cert is a mandatory requirement to fly a model under 20kg at a public display. It is merely recommended by the BMFA, but is ultimately up to the Display organiser. That is my take on the definitions given in the BMFA texts, other interpretations are equally as valid

Andy

Mmmmmmmm, maybe the wording should be more concise! Power or powered?
My take is that a pure Glider is not powered (but obviously requires power of control of the flying surfaces).
But I see where your coming from about the Organisers.
Well as for me ..... I don't feel the need to fly at a Club Show so I don't need all this hassle of getting yet another model to do my B Cert just to satisfy some arcainian rule which doesn't even apply to my disipline.
Thanks for your time anyway Andy.

No worries

The forecast is looking pretty good for the Thursday night club night this week, nice and calm. You planning on coming over with a DLG?

Andy

Yeah, thats the plan at the moment.

You can loan my Blaster to do the A test then the B test with pleasure.

It stall turns perfectly when I'm on the controls so I see no reason with your competition experience why it shouldn't stall turn for you

Thanks mate.
Don't get much practice at stall turns! lol
Someone from another forum said, with a DLG, unless the launch is herculean it would be impossible to complete the tasks.
What height is achieved with a bungee (Hystart) launch?

A bungee launch will take a DLG to heights so high their dreams are lost in the clouds!

Allan Patrick wrote:A bungee launch will take a DLG to heights so high their dreams are lost in the clouds!

Very poetic ...... I should have been more concise! I was wondering what height is achieved with a glider designed to be launched with a bungee and that means of propulsion being used for the launch.
I other words, what is the launch height is required by the BMFA to effectively exicute the A & B certs for Gliders? I can't find any reference in the hand book. But having said that my eyes are getting tired after all this reading.

No, seriously! A bungee would take a DLG to a very (for a DLG) great height! Actually for a DLG if it was me I'd use a 'soft' bungee to keep the stress down - one of the cotton covered type and a short line to save the palarver of laying out a ful length. You would easily have enough height to carry out several loops, stall turns etc

I used to play on the school playing fields with bungees and 48" slopers. Best effect was to keep the nose down to build up massive speed, then when the line came off, point the nose up....

If you went up in the conventional manner you risked overstressing the wings

If you've got as hook on it I'll bring one one Thursday weather permitting

Thanks for the offer Allan but I have no intention at the moment to go back to "Hystart" launches, I used surgical rubber when I used them before in the 70's and DLG is the way to go forward. I am convinced that my DLG's would not stand the strain on the wings using a hystart.
This whole thread has really become hypothetical because I don't really NEED the B cert at the moment.
Maybe a suitable model will come along at the right price and I will look at it again.
Apart from flying aerobatics (which interests me not in the slightest) I can't see why or when I would need to exicute a stall turn.
So I guess that raps up this thread, thanks for peoples unput,
All that remains now is to await some snide or sarcastic comments .........
marty

As M&M say's that really raps it up

Oh ...... I forgot to add Witty comments
Well done Brian